Andrew Dick: Hello, and welcome to The Healthcare Real Estate Advisor Podcast. I’m Andrew Dick, an attorney with Hall Render, the largest healthcare-focused law firm in the country. Today we will be speaking with Collin Hart, the CEO and managing director of ERE Healthcare Real Estate Advisors. ERE is a healthcare real estate consulting and brokerage firm.

We’re going to talk about Collin’s background, the company he leads, and trends in the industry. Collin, thanks for joining me.

Collin Hart: Andrew, thanks so much for having me today.

Andrew Dick: You bet. Collin, before we talk about your role at ERE, let’s talk about your background. Tell us where you’re from, where you went to college, and what you aspired to be.

Collin Hart: Sure. I actually happened into the real estate business by chance, but I’ll kind of start at the beginning and give you a little bit of understanding of where I come from.

Collin Hart: So I originally grew up in the Carolinas, and I started my undergraduate degree at NC State University in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I was going for business. But sometime between my sophomore and junior year, I was looking for an internship, and I basically was late in the game. I didn’t have anything lined up for the summer. And I was kind of looking at my options and figured I, I wasn’t sure what I was going to do.

Collin Hart: So I ended up going to a family reunion and I ran into a cousin of mine. And I mentioned to him that I was looking for an internship and he said, “Well, that’s perfect. We’re looking for an intern. We run a real estate business in south Florida. We own a bunch of shopping centers, and we’d love to have you down.”

Collin Hart: So I didn’t have any other options, and I thought this might be a good one. So I decided to move down to Palm Beach Gardens for the month of July. And basically, I was working at his company. It’s a family office. And so during the day I was learning all about property acquisitions, management, leasing, working with tenants, and then in the evenings he was mentoring me.

Collin Hart: And so at the end of that internship, I moved back up to NC State and I’m reflecting on that experience. And I decided that I learned more in that month working with my cousin and be mentored by him than I learned in my first two years of university. And so with that, I decided, hey, I really want to have a career in real estate. And I moved down to Florida to continue school, but also continue working with him.

Collin Hart: And so that’s how I got started. And eventually I moved into an acquisitions role for that company. And so, as I mentioned originally, they were owning shopping centers all over the state of Florida. But we started branching out and looking for other asset types to acquire. And so we got into the single-tenant real estate space. And so, in case you’re not familiar, that’s fast food restaurants, drug stores, gas stations, basically single-tenant net lease properties that you can really own anywhere. And basically, your job as a landlord is to collect rent. Okay?

Collin Hart: And so that allowed us to really open up our box. And so I got into the role of acquisitions, buying these properties all over. So we acquired about a hundred million dollars of real estate all over the country in about 30 different states. And so fast forward, and I got to the point where I realized I was never going to own any of those assets.

Collin Hart: And so I thought, maybe I ought to forge my own path. And so from that point I left the company, and I went to New York and I worked for a private REIT in acquisitions in New York. And so just in the year that I worked in acquisitions, we bought $300 million of real estate all over the country.

Collin Hart: So I’m coming from this private, we’re investing our own money, into working with an entity that’s investing on behalf of others and really needs to get money out the door. So I got a lot of great experience there, but ultimately decided that I was not set up for cold weather. And so I relocated to Southern California.

Collin Hart: And so at that point I had kind of left the principal side of the business, I no longer worked for that REIT. But at the REIT, we acquiring three different types of properties. We were acquiring single-tenant industrial assets, single-tenant retail assets, and then single-tenant medical assets. And that was really my first foray into the medical real estate world.

Collin Hart: And so what I noticed is that the REIT, we were getting the best deals on all the medical real estate. And I think the reason was because there was poor representation, or no representation, on behalf of the owners of those medical properties. And a lot of times we were buying properties from doctors.

Collin Hart: So that was pretty much the advent of the start of our company, ERE Healthcare Real Estate. Where we said, hey, instead of being on the buy-side, I can move to the sell-side, to the advisory side, and fill a gap in the market, helping these folks who really are getting taken advantage of to now represent their best interests, and get the best possible outcome for them on a real estate sale.

Andrew Dick: Got it. So I know you worked for an investment bank as well. At what point did you say, hey, I need to start my own company, I need to forge my own path? And what really prompted that, Collin?

Collin Hart: Sure. Yeah, so thanks for filling in that gap there.

Collin Hart: Yeah, between the private REIT that I worked for and the founding of ERE, I briefly worked for an investment bank. And so, obviously an investment bank focuses on advising business owners on how to monetize their businesses. And so we were in the real estate side of that. And so I was working on a small team, and basically we would help with the real estate when a practice, or hospital, or healthcare organization was being sold.

Collin Hart: And I just didn’t feel like the real estate was the number one focus. Because again, we were just a piece of the investment bank’s business. And so oftentimes the outcomes would be subpar on the real estate because we were trying to get the best possible outcome on the enterprise.

Collin Hart: And so when I saw that conflict of interest, or not the best total or aggregate outcome, I said, hey, let’s focus just on the real estate side of things. And that was really the founding of ERE.

Andrew Dick: Got it. And did you start the business on your own, or did you come over with a partner?

Collin Hart: I started with a partner. Fortunately, I met some really great people working at the bank. And so as part of that, a couple of us left at different, times and ultimately ended up coming together and founding ERE together.

Andrew Dick: Got it. So talk about your typical client. Is it the physician, independent physician? Talk a little bit about the client base.

Collin Hart: Sure. So I would say that we’ve worked with all different types of healthcare organizations. It could be institutional real estate investors, it could be a health system, or it could be the independent physician groups. I would say the majority of our business is in working with those independent physician groups, generally because real estate is maybe the third or fourth tier of their expertise, right?

Collin Hart: Number one, their physicians and providers. Number two, their members of their community, members of their family. Number three, there may be business people and investors. And then number four, perhaps real estate is the focus. So those are the folks who we can work with, where we can add value to their situation. And so that’s where a lot of our business comes from. We’ll certainly advise the health systems and the others, but at the end of the day, we’re able to deliver the most value with the folks who perhaps have the least experience in real estate.

Andrew Dick: Got it. And Collin, talk about where you’re at in the country and markets that you’re serving. Or maybe it’s just nationally.

Collin Hart: Sure, yeah. So we have offices in Southern California and in Texas. And so while we have just those two offices, we’re really focused all over the country. And the reason for that is because it’s not like there’s hundreds of physician-owned medical buildings in any one market. Generally we’re working with the specialty physicians in any one market.

Collin Hart: So that might be gastroenterologists, orthopods, urologists, dermatologists, nephrologists, any of these specialty folks, often who are in a position where they own their practice and then they also own their real estate.

Collin Hart: So we literally travel across the country. I mean, we’re working on transactions now all the way from, let’s say south Florida to Alaska, believe it or not. So this is our first deal in Alaska and we’re really excited to help those folks.

Andrew Dick: That’s great. So talk about the type of services you’re providing. A lot of times we think of brokers who are trying to convince physicians to sell their real estate, or participate in a sale lease back or an UPREIT transaction. What is your role when you’re working with clients, and what is the objective?

Collin Hart: Yeah, that’s a great question and I appreciate that. So I will tell you that we’ve probably told just as many people, that they should not sell their real estate, as those who we’ve told, you really should sell your real estate. And so we really take an advisory approach. While we are a brokerage and we do make money when we sell real estate on behalf of our clients, at the end of the day, we take a long-term perspective on our transactions with our clients.

Collin Hart: And so we generally are not pushing them for a sale. Generally, they reach out to us, or we’ve been in touch with them for many years, and we advise them on certain points in the life cycle of their business that, hey, it might make sense for them to explore a real estate transaction.

Collin Hart: So the services that we offer, to kind of get back to your question, while our primary business is selling real estate, oftentimes on behalf of physicians, there’s a lot more to it, right?

Collin Hart: So you’re an attorney, and I’m assuming you understand the correlation between the strength of the lease and the value of the real estate. Right?

Andrew Dick: Mm-hm (affirmative).

Collin Hart: Right. So that’s where we try to differentiate ourselves as advisors. While we sell real estate, we’re really experts in leases as well. And so we get involved oftentimes in the lease negotiation process. Totally, we can bring aggressive offers, we run a competitive marketing process to generate multiple offers on our client’s real estate when they’re ready to sell it. But there’s a lot of buildup to that, oftentimes over the course of a couple of years.

Collin Hart: And so one of our biggest business segments right now is, we’re working with independent physician groups who are exploring a sale of their practice, let’s say to private equity or some aggregator. And so when they’re going through a transaction like that, if they own their practice and they own their real estate, and they’re selling off their practice but retaining that real estate, there’s going to need to be a new lease executed or negotiated between the new owner of the practice and the original physician to retain the real estate.

Collin Hart: And so we see so often that the physicians are so focused on the practice deal, that they don’t pay attention to the real estate and they negotiate subpar terms. So what we’ve tried to do is create a lot of education surrounding that, and the value of your real estate, and the importance of the lease terms. And so we often come in when a practice is going through a PE deal to help them negotiate that lease. So that whether they decide sell the real estate or not, they have the option.

Andrew Dick: Got it. So talk about some of the areas of expertise. I know you and I have talked about different private equity deals right now, the private equity firms are really aggressive going after certain specialties. And I know that you and your team have developed an area of expertise with ophthalmologist. And talk a little bit about that, Collin.

Collin Hart: Sure. I kind of fell into the world of ophthalmology just by chance, kind of like the same way I got into real estate. And so what ended up happening is, we were working with a couple of ophthalmology practices several years ago, and they were really satisfied with the outcome.

Collin Hart: And so we started getting involved with the different ophthalmology professional organizations, like the trade organizations that really catered to the physicians, the providers.

Collin Hart: And so in going to a couple of those conferences, I noticed that everybody’s talking about private equity and practice operations, but really nobody was talking about real estate. And I didn’t understand that. And so in, corresponding a lot with these different professional organizations, we’re able to create a consultant membership or role for ourselves where we can add value, not only to those individual physician groups that are part of the organization, but also contribute to the knowledge base.

Collin Hart: And ultimately, that’s what we’re about. So for us it’s just about delivering value from a longterm perspective, not only to specific clients but to that industry or specialty.

Andrew Dick: Got it. And so when you’re working with physicians, what are some of the concerns that they raise your. You’re right that in a traditional sale of their practice they’re focused on the economics of the sale of the practice, and the real estate doesn’t always get a lot of attention.

Collin Hart: Right.

Andrew Dick: What type of things are you helping them with? Negotiate the lease term, negotiate the lease rate, the form of the lease, things like that?
Collin Hart: Sure. It’s all of those things plus many more. And so let’s just take the private equity piece out of the equation to start out, right? Let’s just say it’s a traditional sale and leaseback transaction that we’re working on with an independent physician group, just to kind of simplify the discussion.

Collin Hart: And so everybody talks about, hey, we want to get the most money, right? I’ve never heard anybody say I want less money. And so that’s always how the conversations begin, but ultimately it comes down to, what terms are you willing to agree to in order to get to a price like that?

Collin Hart: And so what we’re kind of working against is a lot of brokers, unfortunately, I won’t say advisors, but a lot of brokers in the market kind of lead those discussions, or try to bait some of their perspective clients with the most aggressive pricing possible.

Collin Hart: And so maybe there’s really low cap rates that are available, but hey, is the practice, or are the partners willing to sign up for all the obligations that are necessary to get to something like that?

Collin Hart: So our education process is related to pricing, and certainly we can bring aggressive pricing as part of our marketing process. But it’s helping our practices understand what the implications of a lease are. What are the market terms of a lease? What is the length of lease that helps them optimize the value of the real estate? What is the rental rate that not only is sustainable for their practice, but also is in line with fair market value?

Collin Hart: And so there’s a lot of nuance to that as I’m sure you know, as council, right? And there’s no right answer. But ultimately our goal is to try and balance the short-term objectives of the sale of the real estate, and kind of getting the most proceeds, with the long-term objectives of the practice, which are ultimately sustainability, right?

Collin Hart: We’re not here to put any of our client practices out of business, it’s more about helping them balance those objectives.

Andrew Dick: Got it. So Collin talk about, you’ve been doing this for a while. Talk about how the industry has evolved. I mean, it seems to me that private equity, at least as of late, has been really driving a lot of deal activity. I was just looking at the BOMA MOB agenda for November, private equities prominently displayed. In terms of, that’s a discussion topic.

Collin Hart: Sure.

Andrew Dick: Is that one of the driving forces of the activity, as of the last couple of years? Or what else are you seeing in the industry? I mean, it seems to me that private equity is having a very big impact on the healthcare real estate industry.

Collin Hart: So here’s why I think it’s having a big impact, and there’s changes in real estate, but there’s also changes in the operational side of the business. And the practices, right? Like the delivery of healthcare.

Collin Hart: So on the real estate side, first of all, you’re seeing so much more interest in healthcare real estate because it fared so well during the recession and through the pandemic, right? Rent collections were high and tenants remain in business. And if you look at the investment landscape in the real estate world today, well, retail’s not that appealing of a place to invest, just given everything’s moving online.

Collin Hart: And then let’s say multifamily, which has traditionally been a really attractive investment class, is a little bit less certain because, hey, for the time being, you can’t kick your tenants out if they don’t pay rent. So that leaves a lot of investors looking at, what are the options? And because of the successful track record of healthcare real estate, they say, hey, maybe we should explore this. Right?

Collin Hart: So that’s, I think, why there’s a lot of additional interest and big volume of transactions in our space. Now, on the provider side, and the practice and operations side, I’m not a physician. As I know, you’re not either. And so I can only begin to understand the challenges that they’re having.

Collin Hart: But I think 20, 30, 40 years ago, practicing medicine provided a lot of freedom for the providers. It allowed a lot of creativity, and delivery of care, and running their own business. But what we’re seeing in healthcare, as is the case in many other industries, is there’s a lot of aggregation. And so it makes it challenging for independent practices to continue operating profitably, successfully, with limited risk.

Collin Hart: And so, particularly because there’s so much pressure on costs from all the third party payers and Medicare, I think it makes it even more challenging for independent practices to be sustainable.

Collin Hart: And so what we’re seeing, especially in a post-COVID world is, hey, if I could be part of a bigger organization as an independent provider, whether it be a health system or I’m under the umbrella of some private equity-backed management services organization that gives me negotiating power at a big company, but allows me to operate within the confines of my practice on my own, that might be an appealing idea. And so I think that’s, what’s driving a lot of the trend towards consolidation in the practice side of things.

Collin Hart: And as a result of that, I think that affects healthcare real estate too. Because think about it like this. Andrew, if you own your practice, you probably bought or built your real estate as a way to control the destiny of your practice, right? It’s an investment, but it’s also, the investment part is like secondary. Number one, you just wanted to own your home, let’s say. Right?

Collin Hart: So if you’re selling your practice, and you no longer control the tenancy in your building, it totally changes the dynamic of the real estate investment. And so from that perspective, we’re seeing a lot of folks say, well, the reason I bought or built my real estate was to control the practice, but I don’t control the practice anymore. So why do I own this real estate? And so that’s, at least for us, driving a lot of deal flow.

Andrew Dick: So Collin, one question I thought of is, when we see independent physicians join a larger group or join a roll up under a private equity model, sometimes I’ve seen these independent docs are very entrepreneurial. And sometimes they say, look, I want to give this a shot for a couple of years, but at some point I may want to go back to being an independent, or maybe reserve the right to do that.

Andrew Dick: Does that come up often in discussions with physicians? Meaning, hey, I may want to terminate the lease with the new provider entity, and then go back, have the right to go back to what I was doing. I’ve seen that come up a couple of times, Collin. As some of the independence are so, sometimes they want all the benefits of joining in on a larger group, but sometimes they get frustrated by the bureaucracy.

Collin Hart: Sure, so I agree with you. And I think we’ll see a wave of that in the next five to 10 years. Here’s why. In our client relationships, the folks who are really driving the practice sales and the real estate sales are the previous generation of providers. Those are the entrepreneurial guys that you’re referencing that built up their practice because they wanted to control everything.

Collin Hart: The reason that they’re selling is because they need an exit strategy. They need some way to get the sweat equity out that they built up through those decades of practicing. And so they look to the younger providers who are coming out of school, and we’re seeing a different financial and work profile associated with those folks. They have less money, they expect more, but they also have more debt. And so as a result of that, those incoming providers probably aren’t the best candidate to buy the practice from the senior physicians. And so the senior physicians don’t really have an exit strategy. So private equity or a health system would provide that.

Collin Hart: Now, fast forward five years, the senior physicians who sold are out, and the junior guys are still around. And I think eventually you’ll see this, we want to get away from working for somebody, and we want to go back to independent practice. And so I think eventually that’ll happen. But along with that comes hard work, risk, and entrepreneurship, right?

Collin Hart: And a lot of the generalizations that we’re hearing from our clients who, again, are usually the senior guys are, hey, we don’t see the same mentality in our incoming providers that we had when we started in practice. So it remains to be seen, right? I mean, my crystal ball’s about as hazy as yours.

Andrew Dick: Yeah. I tend to agree with you though, that I predict there will be a wave over the next three, four, five years of some of these docs who have joined in a larger practice, become employed and say, you know what? I kind of want to go back out on my own, or join a smaller group.

Collin Hart: Right.

Andrew Dick: Where I have a little bit more autonomy. So yeah. I agree with you.

Andrew Dick: Collin, switching gears a little bit, where do you see the opportunities in the healthcare real estate industry?

Collin Hart: Sure.

Andrew Dick: A lot of activity, right, over the past two years. It just seems more and more investors coming into the space, where are the opportunities?

Collin Hart: Yeah, I agree with you. I think historically there’s been so much focus on hospital credit, health system credit, corporate credit, right? Whether it be a hospital, or whether it be a national operator like a DaVita or Fresenius, or some of the bigger urgent care chains that are popping up.

Collin Hart: I think that corporate credit has always been something that feels safe, that you can hang your hat on as a real estate investor. But I think the real opportunity lies in understanding some of the smaller credit-worthy tenants, and really getting a better understanding of the operations, and what makes them dominant in particular areas. And that they own the market there for a reason. And they’re independent for a reason.

Collin Hart: And I think that makes for a very compelling investment thesis. And it’s not new, I mean, I’m not coining something and saying, hey, everybody should go focus on this. There are certainly plenty of participants who are focused on that. But I think that’s where a lot of the bigger opportunity is, especially in terms of risk and reward, right? Because if you look at some of those traditionally desirable corporate credit deals, the cap rates or yields on those are really low.

Collin Hart: So if you’re looking for a little bit better risk-reward profile, if you properly underwrite some of these smaller credits, I think there’s some value arbitrage to be had there.

Andrew Dick: Yeah, I agree with you. Collin, what about surgery centers? I don’t know how often you run into physicians that have ownership in a surgery center. There’s been an awful lot of activity in surgery centers over the last year or two.

Collin Hart: Sure.

Andrew Dick: Seems to be that they’re gaining more traction, but there’s also been a lot of new development of surgery centers in certain markets. And what’s your thoughts on that opportunities in that industry?

Collin Hart: Sure. So again, I’m not a provider, so I can’t give you the nitty-gritty in terms of the pros and cons of surgery centers. Here’s what I’ll share with you. Obviously there’s a push to outpatient care. And I think the reasoning for that is for pressure on costs and outpatient care is less expensive to deliver, and therefore the payers want that. That’s number one.

Collin Hart: Number two, I think you’re seeing better outcomes and lower infection rates in an outpatient environment. So not only is it better for cost, it’s better for outcomes, right? So that’s, I think that’s great, and those are things that are achieved in an ASC setting.

Collin Hart: Now from a real estate investment perspective, I would say 75% of the transactions that we work on have some ASC or surgery center component, right? So it’s a big part of what we do.

Collin Hart: And I think there’s always going to be demand for that, especially when we were talking about surveying your different investment opportunities across the real estate spectrum. You can buy retail goods online, certainly everyone’s always going to need a place to live so there’s always an investment thesis for multifamily.

Collin Hart: But the same applies to surgery centers. Which is, hey, you can’t buy procedures on the internet, right? So if someone needs LASIK, or they need to have their cataracts removed, or they need a colonoscopy, or you need a new knee, I mean, we can’t do that via telehealth, right? And so I think that’s the compelling investment thesis behind AFCs is, you need somewhere to do the procedure. So I think that in the long run, that’s where it’s at, as opposed to inpatient care.

Collin Hart: But I think maybe you were alluding to, you’re seeing lots of ASC development, and is that a sustainable model? Is that your question?

Andrew Dick: Yeah, Collin, that’s right. We know that there’s tremendous demand for those facilities, not just on the real estate side, but on the [OPCO 00:27:21] side. And anytime you see big players like Optum jumping into that space and buying up hundreds of surgery centers, you have to take notice.

Andrew Dick: And so I’ve just, I’ve seen a tremendous amount of development activity when we’re looking at trends in the industry. And I just think it’s interesting to watch. I mean, surgery centers have always been out there, but just seems like there’s an awful lot of momentum right now.

Collin Hart: Right.

Andrew Dick: In terms of investors looking for those assets, but also operating providers looking to gain access to new patient populations.

Collin Hart: Yeah, I agree with you. And just to continue on that a little bit, I think part of the consolidation play, be it in practices or in the surgery component, like in an ASC environment, part of the value proposition for folks buying into the enterprise is, hey, if we own more of these operations, we have more negotiating power with the payers. So I think that’s also driving a push into an interest in that space as well.

Andrew Dick: Makes sense. Collin, let’s switch gears.

Collin Hart: Sure.
Andrew Dick: A couple more questions before we wrap up. Last time we spoke, we talked about veterinary clinics. I find those very interesting because they’re also becoming hot right now, from an investor perspective. We’re seeing private equity move into that space as well. What are your thoughts?

Collin Hart: So it’s pretty top-of-mind for us. We just completed a transaction where we sold six veterinary hospitals. And so that was our first engagement in the space, but we learned a lot about it. I think there are a lot of parallels between human health care and veterinary care, but actually you said, hey, private equity is moving into it. Actually, private equity in veterinary care is probably a decade ahead of where it is in human healthcare.

Collin Hart: And so I think if you really study and look at the vet care consolidation, that’s what the future holds for human healthcare as well. And so I think the reason for that earlier consolidation is because there’s obviously less regulation related to the care of animals versus humans, number one.

Collin Hart: But are were some major operators out there in the vet care space. And the trends that we’re seeing in vet care are pretty similar to healthcare in that the consolidation is driven by pricing power, driven by demand for succession planning from those senior founding docs.

Collin Hart: But what’s unique about that care is, in human healthcare we have this third-party payer system. But in veterinary care, do you have a pet or an animal?

Andrew Dick: We did for many years, and I think I know where you’re going.

Collin Hart: Okay.

Andrew Dick: Out-of-pocket private pay.

Collin Hart: Out-of-pocket, yes. So in human healthcare it’s like your insurance company, you pay your deductible, your insurance company foots the bill for the rest. And we don’t necessarily see what happens behind the scenes there as a patient. But for veterinary care, if your dog is sick, you take your dog and you pay for it, cash, that day. And that’s not to say there aren’t some insurance policies for pets, but generally you’re reimbursed directly by the insurance company after you pay the bill.

Collin Hart: And so that’s a pretty interesting value proposition for an owner of a vet practice, because you’re not beholden to these big payers who are putting pressure on your pricing. So I think vet care is a desirable investment segment from that perspective. And obviously, I mean, I know you don’t have a pet now, but the growth in pet ownership has never been greater, especially through COVID.

Collin Hart: And so more people are having pets, and maybe waiting ’til later in life to have a child, right? So they treat their pets like a member of their family, and as such they’re willing to spend money on their health care. So I think it’s a super interesting space, and a lot of parallels to human health care and the real estate surrounding that.

Andrew Dick: Well, I find it interesting as well. Thanks for the insight.

Collin Hart: Sure.

Andrew Dick: Last question. What advice would you give to a young professional getting into the healthcare real estate business?

Collin Hart: I think that’s a great question. And I’ve thought about it a lot, especially as we grow our team. And I think I would take it back to an earlier part of our conversation, where we have a really long-term perspective, and we’re not pushy in terms of transactions, right?

Collin Hart: My business lives and dies by transactions, but we’re not focused on that. We’re focused on delivering value to our clients. And so I think that if you’re new coming into the business, and you can focus on delivering value, whatever capacity or role you have in the business, I think you’ll be successful. It’s all about that long-term perspective, that persistence, and that delivery of value.

Andrew Dick: Got it. Collin, where can our audience learn more about you and your company?

Collin Hart: Sure. So our website is pretty simple, it’s just six letters. It’s ereadv.com. And you can find everything about our team, and our company, and all our contact information on our website.

Andrew Dick: Great. Collin, thanks for joining us today. A great discussion. Thanks to our audience as well, for listening on your Apple or Android device. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave feedback for us.

Andrew Dick: We also publish a newsletter called The Health Care Real Estate Advisor. To be added to the list, please email me at adick@hallrender.com